Do you agree with Duns Scotus that the existence of God can be known through natural knowledge (aka, 'revelation or theology' in Medieval Europe) or with William of Ockham who said that God can only be know through faith?
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, September 1, 2006 - 8:05 PMwow thats a pretty loaded question, and one that would seem better suited to a theology tribe, due to the necessity of beleiving first in gods existance, as your premise. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Sun, September 3, 2006 - 2:41 AMIll be the first to admit I was totally speaking out my ass, and apologize for that, and trying to establish a reply based on a summery for a website would do these thinkers no justice( or go about est as any less of a lurp). However subject is one that intrigues me, due to my interests in kierkegaard's work. So I was wondering if someone could reccomend what works of Scotus, and Ocham, one should begin with -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Sun, September 3, 2006 - 10:29 PMHey, Dustin.
I was trying to figure out your name on my inbox.
Okay, now I know who you are.
Seriously, not to offend u brother, but if you can't read/understand the summary found in Standford's online Encylopedia, I doubt it very much that you would pass the first chapter of any book by Duns Scotus or William of Ockham. I am dead serious about this. I am a Grad student at a Christian university and the Philosophy program at my school is one of the best non-Ph.D. granting schools in the country and Phil majors won't get near either of them. On top of that, I have --and I'm technically not a philo major, I am a theology major(philosophical theology is pushing it).
But I commend you for your desire to learn:
any translation of Scotus' "Sentences" is best because it is a commentary on Aristotle's work and Ockham, his pupil, wrote his own commentaries on Aristotle "Categories, On Interpretations". This should give you an idea, hopefully, how each one approached Aristotle's categories of ideas and also why Ockham ultimately disagrees with his professor.
If I sounded sensitive, I apologize. There are a lot of assumptions about philosophy I enter in and maybe I should begin at a base level for those that don't understand formally where philosophy is going and why presumbly I am asking an irrevelant question.
My intention at proposing this question is to get people to utilize analytical and logical skills to defend their beliefs. The best way to develop critical thinking skills for philosophers is to understand the logic of other writers through their writings, critique them if they disagree or think they jumped "off track" on their logic, and second, to propose questions to students to get them to work on their own thinking. This means me too! I'm looking for a philosophical dual.
What better way to illicit the skills of logic and critical thinking than by proposing controversial issues like the existence of God?
Whether or not I have a bias is not the issue. As a matter of fact, people who disagree in philosophy often engage in academic debate in their professional journals and public debates. It actually helps each side sharpen their thinking and writing skills with the express desire to ultimately reach the truth or answer to the question.
So what would be my answer? I'll put it up later this week.
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, September 1, 2006 - 8:13 PMDo you know who Duns Scotus or William of Ockham is?
Run by the online standford encyclopedia of philosophy and read there bios real quick and get back wit' me brotha. I'll provide the link:
plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
If your head explodes before you finish reading the articles, I'll help you out in a few. Otherwise, I hope you understand the suitability of this question historically for philosophy, in general, and in the areas of modern metaphysics and epistemology in particular, to say the least. But if you want to keep it at the level of epistemology (that's a branch of philosophy right?), feel free to give your reasons why since it sounds like you would agree with Ockham. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, September 1, 2006 - 10:35 PMTo be honest I have never heard of Scotus prior to this post, but most lay people have heard of Ockham, due to the infamous maxim of Occam's Razor.
PS Ill return with a reply
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Sat, September 2, 2006 - 5:03 AMGood Question here. And it is important to remember that Medieval philosophy raises valid philosophical questions and those often relate to the nature of God. I'm sorry that more attention is not put to Medievel philosophy because I love it. And to answer your question with my opinion, Duns Scotus has my vote.I think it was Bonaventure who wrote that there are five paths to knowledge of the Divine: one of them was through discursive logic, one was from the studfy of nature, I think another was the contemplation of love, another was through scriptures and I think the last one had to do with charitable acts. This seems very similar to the various Yogic paths to knowledge of God (Bhakti, Jnana, Hatha, etc.). -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Sat, September 2, 2006 - 10:32 PMReally, my strength is in historical theology and philosophy, so naturally, I am more interested in analyzing the arguments of particularily medieval european philosphers and before the Enlightment were overwhelmingly theologians as well. It's difficult to separate philosophy in those times from theology because much of there philo arguments and methods (which today would involve other examples) where developed around Christian doctrines and beliefs. So its no surprise they dealt with questions like does God exist, if so, is he knowable, is the trinity coherent, are miracles verifiable, etc. However, some of these "proofs" have'nt yet been disproven while others have been refined or applied in other realms of thought. In other cases, some philosophy "schools" of thought have abandoned these questions as archaic or to be relegated to personal unverifiable beliefs. The irony is that many original questions posed by these medieval philosophy theologians have not been disproven by modern philosophers. IOW, fer\w if any modern philosophers can overshadow them in breadth or writing, logic, and reasoning.
The other problem that exists among "would be" philosophers and philosophers in general, is that they have accepted the erroneous idea that modern philosophy is really only an advance form of English grammar. For that I am sorry, for them and not for me, because they don't believe that humans really are in search of truth or that truth can be known and want to find ways of experiencing, discovering, and communicating it.
On Duns Scotus:
How would you go about explaining to someone that God can be known or is evident via our natural faculties?
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Mon, September 4, 2006 - 4:12 AMFrom the implicit order of nature. The idea that such order could arise out of chaos and chance is absurd. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 5, 2006 - 6:36 AMI believe you are misusing the term "chaos". Chaos theory states that the more complex the system, the more variables involved the harder it is to make predictions or understand the consequences of an event. That is not the same as "unorderliness" as is implied in your post (by contrasting your first and second sentences). -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 5, 2006 - 4:02 PM"The idea that such order could arise out of chaos and chance is absurd."
Ordinary physics makes this an invalid point as well. If you accept the occurrence of electrons and atoms whirring around at the particle level to make the appearance of a "solid" object, you already know this statement is silly. Things are in massive chaos ALL THE TIME, even the things we think are orderly.
But the argument itself is pretty silly. While I would certainly accept as an axiom "there is a god" and then talk about this, it is a loaded debate. As well there is a large amount of relativism to keep in mind. Best for whom or what? I could take the reductio ad absurdum stance and say an alien race, with its own gods, could only best know them in terms of (a), while another alien race could only know them in terms of (b).
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 5:51 AMI'm using the term chaos as they would have understood it in the middle ages, since that is the period we are speaking of. I know about how chaos theory has used the term in contemporary cosmology but it is not the only usage of the term. Any standard dictionary can tell you that. I did not refer to "chaos" theory.
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 5, 2006 - 6:34 AMIn the problem of evil, "Why does God *permit* evil arising in his creation?" Duns' answer is that God has no moral obligations to his creatures. While we are morally obligated to intervene to prevent evil, God does not have this moral duty despite 1 Corinthians 13:4-9 and a host of other scdriptures (Good Samaritan, principlce of neighborly love, and other OT verses).
Given the overal views (and agreeing that the question is waaaaaay loaded) I would side with Ockham, belief in God cannot be established on reason or evidence. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 5, 2006 - 8:52 PMGood to hear some responses.
I just want to make some clarifications before I jump into this discussion any deeper.
I was asking if people agree or disagree with the arguments of philosophers Scotus or Ockham. A person should be familiar with the arguments they made for or against knowing God. Or well enough versed in philosophy to be aware that the question of "knowing" God has been a perennial one for philosophers for several centuries and so will respond with some of the basic issues in mind.
the arguments are specifically narrowed to at least an epistemological one(from our vantage point) and at best a metaphysical question. IOW, it is a loaded question only if the main question is ignored in order to try to answer a different question,
I know this sounds trivial but really, there is a distinction with the question I offered and the way its being answered.
But if you all want to make this a question of whether YOU believe that God can be known or not with our 5 senses, than I didn't not make up that question. I can go along with that too, but its not the original question.
(BTW, I didn't bring this up to argue over whether the question I asked was really the one I asked in the original post but on the contrary the question I gave was different because the rest of the respondents answered the question differently which proves that regardless of the English syntactical word order, the thoughts in the mind of respondents over ride the black and white lettering on the screen. And those thoughts are different than the question, so the question must be wrong. If so, again, I apologize.) -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 4:41 AMTo clarify the "loaded" response, "faith" has many definitions. The simplified definition for Ockham is that faith is not based upon evidence utilized by logic. But that definition says what faith is NOT, not what faith IS. This negative definition does not entail "blind faith" that is common among southern baptists, e.g. For Duns Scotus, we can know God through abstraction by the intellect from our senses. David Hume and William of Ockham defeated this view (IMO). Nowhere do we find the marks of God; i.e., the marks of deity--immateriality, spirituality, perfection (which has many definitions). (This leads immediately to the teleological argument.) -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 6:17 AM>>>Nowhere do we find the marks of God; i.e., the marks of deity--immateriality, spirituality, perfection (which has many definitions). (This leads immediately to the teleological argument.) <<<<
One might ask, if we find nowhere these marks of God, where did we get these ideas? What were they abstracted FROM?
Tradionally, thoughts have been held to be immaterial. Though we cannot draw perfect circles with a freehand, we can with a geometer's compass. We understand this. Certainly, the familiar notion of spirit---no known culture lacks it--suggests a universal awareness of something unseen whose impact is real.
I'm NOT arguing that spirits exist, or that anything immaterial exists, or that anything is perfect. I'm saying that we do have these ideas, and if all ideas are abstracted from material reality (-or creation), then these marks exist there. Otherwise, these ideas have NO material basis and that raises the question, then how did they get into a material brain? How would that work?
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 6:32 AMTo clarify, these "marks" are not properties discernible by the senses. They are not redness, solidity, etc. Of course Kant is right in saying that the mind supplies some information, organizational information. Maybe the mind is organizing some experiences in a "deitiness" way. For example, consciousness organizes light data into three-dimensional space. Then, the mind must organize raw data in a deity way. Hume, Ockham, and Kant are right (IMO) in saying the natural world bears not marks of deity (that is we do not find "deitiness" as a property of things in the world--a property like redness and solidity). The next question then is does our consciousness organize raw sense data in this way? There was a recent study--"No God Spot in the Brain"--suggesting that this does not occur. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 9:10 AM>>>To clarify, these "marks" are not properties discernible by the senses. <<<<<
Now you're saying "deitiness" (which is a new one me) whereas before you were saying immaterial, perfect, and I forget the third one.
If immateriality is not discernible by the senses (-and I'm not saying it is), then how does the material mind form an idea we have of it? This is a common human idea. If nothing enters the mind except through the senses, then how did this idea get in there?
One way to get at this is to posit the existence of intellect, an immaterial faculty. Short of that, I don't know how you get there.
And let's be clear, we're not just talking about words that may be associated with God, such as spirtit or immaterial or eternal. Such words as democracy and fairness and good and peace and truth fall into the same category. And love and hope.. And summertime, for that matter, when the living is easy...
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 6:44 PMI have a koine Greek & ancient Hebrew both tomorrow.
But I will say this.
From my readings, Scotus believed that God was knowable in an abstract sense. That is, he accepted many of Aquinas' arguments for the exsistence of God, etc, logical arguments that are hard to disprove (IMO). However, Ockham did not agree but asserted that God can only be known by faith?
I agree with both. I believe Scotus was writing about coming to a rational conclusion that a necessary metaphysical being exists by logically thinking back far enough about existence. However, Ockham had a deeper meaning or criteria for what it means to "know" God. In my opinion, I believe that Ockham was arguing about whether divine revelation could be arrived at with natural knowledge. And in this regard I agree with Ockham. It is impossible for anybody to personally experience an infinite being simply by thinking about it, unless you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that is divine revelation, not natural knowledge. This is Ockham's position. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Wed, September 6, 2006 - 6:45 PMI have a koine Greek & ancient Hebrew test both tomorrow. After that, I can dedicate more time to tribe.
But I will say this.
From my readings, Scotus believed that God was knowable in an abstract sense. That is, he accepted many of Aquinas' arguments for the exsistence of God, etc, logical arguments that are hard to disprove (IMO). However, Ockham did not agree but asserted that God can only be known by faith?
I agree with both. I believe Scotus was writing about coming to a rational conclusion that a necessary metaphysical being exists by logically thinking back far enough about existence. However, Ockham had a deeper meaning or criteria for what it means to "know" God. In my opinion, I believe that Ockham was arguing about whether divine revelation could be arrived at with natural knowledge. And in this regard I agree with Ockham. It is impossible for anybody to personally experience an infinite being simply by thinking about it, unless you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that is divine revelation, not natural knowledge. This is Ockham's position. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Thu, September 7, 2006 - 4:30 AMHere is a primer on Aquinas' Five Ways:
www.geocities.com/hicks1172...or_God.doc
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Thu, September 7, 2006 - 4:22 AM"...Aquinas' arguments for the exsistence of God, etc, logical arguments that are hard to disprove (IMO). However, Ockham did not agree but asserted that God can only be known by faith?"
Are you kidding me? Aquinas' arguments are among the worst arguments for God's existence. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Thu, September 7, 2006 - 7:50 PM>>>Are you kidding me? Aquinas' arguments are among the worst arguments for God's existence.>>>
Krampus. Are you gonna force me to really start thinking? Or are you bluffing?
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 6:09 PMOkay, first lets set aside for the moment, the question of whether or not ontologically, a necessary being exists. Instead, lets work backwards to what is apparently a hang up for some that my original question is loaded.
To begin with it is necessary to follow the logic of where we're headed: from Scotus' & Ockham's beliefs (requiring some previous knowledge), to whether or not we agree or disagree (my original question), to where Scotus or Ock's beliefs fit in our modern philosophical lenses. This is not to say that I hold to philo. relativisim necessarily or by default and so relegate S & O's with the privilege of personal opinion. Rahter I believe this is a logical 1st step towards discussing whether or not its epistemically justified to hold to a belief in an infinite immaterial necessary being.
And the underlying issue is: Discussing the possibility of whether or not truth can be known, is true independent of our having embraced it or, that truth exists in the mind w/o possibility of a establishing a criteria to determine its veracity or not.
Which brings us back to the fundamental issues that S & O differed over. In a modern sense, Scotus can be said to hold that knowledge of God is a non-basic belief, which is to say discursive and rational. Ockham on the other, can be said to hold to knowledge of God as properly basic, and therefore non-discursive but rational. So scotus would site inductive reason, the external world, history, archaelogy, etc, as "proof" that God can be known objectively. Ockham would dismiss this and hold to belief in God as a priori and experential.
But given the diversification of western culture embracing non-western views of God, the shift from a Judeo-Christian (S & O's world) concept of God towards a more general "theistic" view (to site one view), for clarity purposes, I will divide this argument into two:
1. Can the existence of God be known independent of our mind, that is objectively ontological?
2. Is the knowledge or belief in God rational, that is, a justified true belief, whether basic or not, subjective or objectively held? -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 19, 2006 - 2:37 PMI won't address all of your posting, just the part with Justified True Belief.
According to the JTB theory, knowledge is factive: that is, if you know that p then p has to be true.
And there is the crux. About God, no one knows if the existence of God is true, otherwise there would be no debate. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 19, 2006 - 8:29 PMWe're crossing wires here because you are on the one hand saying in the "history of philos" tribe that knowledge is unknowable (in my own words) and therefore arbitrary but in this tribe thread you make an emphatic statement that no one knows if the existence of God is true.
So please, stick with your arguments because trying to get you to commit to an idea is like trying to grasp water at a running stream.
I don't want this "slipshod" type of philosophy on this thread. If you want to argue theory and justification and commit to logical assertions and propostions that can be intelligently critique, than I will pursue to respond. If not, we can play "magician" on the other thread.
I don't want to sound insulting, I apologize if you take it that way. Understand that this thread has gotten really technical with a fellow tribester who is a philo prof. and I don't want to get off track. -
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, September 19, 2006 - 10:57 PMWhat I have expressed on the other thread are my thoughts about what I consider to be the foundation of knowledge. On this thread, I have expressed the main idea behind the Justified True Belief theory, as your have requested on an earlier post, and how I believe it (the JTB theory) would answer you on the notion of God -- I'm playing Devil's advocate, no pun intended...
Hope this clarifies the confusion.
To reiterate again: Personally, I believe one takes a starting position -- either I believe in the existence of God or I don't believe in the existence of God. This requires no proof, no justification along with some book of revelation or some rational reasoning like in geometry.
(i)The JTB theory only talks about factive knowledge. Example:I know it is raining. You look outside and indeed it is raining. I know p if only p is true.
(ii) Also, I must believe that p is true. Example: You ask me in what year did the battle of Hasting take place? I'm not sure but 1066 sounds good. According to the JTB, I did not know the answer, I was guessing. For me to claim I knew the answer, not only p must be true, I must believe that p is true.
(iii) Also, there has to be justification. Example: I'm in a room with no window. I say, I know it is raining. You ask me why I believe so. I say, I see people coming in with drops on their clothes, I hear thunder, I hear drops falling on the roof. Not only is p true, and I believe that p is true, I also have reasonable evidence or justification to believe so.
Now on the question, does God exist? the crux of the matter is that p is not a factive knowledge (i), no one knows if p is true to start with. The JTB does not help anyone in this case.
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Fri, February 2, 2007 - 11:57 AMJ -
I have read this thread, and it looks quite old, so sorry to jump in right now, but you have dismissed very significant criticisms of any philosophy of religion by simply saying "you do not understand the material you are reading". Now, i admit i do not know SCOTUS other than the body of 9 judges who sit in Washinton, but to suggest that your initial expolration of this topic was a valid approach in a philosophical endeavor is errant, filled with the NECESSITY of belief in god.
Yes, historically "god" means many things to a host of different philosophers, and one cannot understand their philosophy without understanding their view of the nature of god, and of, as Bahktin reminds us, the nature of the dialogue between philosopher and reader, nevertheless "which do you agree with", is an invalid and empty answer, if you do not believe in god - and therefore god has no nature.
To me, Spinoza and LIebnetz have taken what Scotus pokes and, and exploded the idea far more fully, fleshing it out with more detail and complexity.
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Re: SCOTUS OR OCKHAM?
Tue, January 9, 2007 - 2:20 PM"For there are Gods -- the knowledge of them is self-evident" Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus (Long & Sedley "Hellenistic Philosophers" vol. 1 p. 140)
I vote with Epicurus. Screw those Christian guys.
- Curt
