Is there truly right and wrong? Or is it all just in the eye of the beholder..... What is your opinion? I am one who believes it all depends on who you ask what right and wrong is. I believe that everyone has a different view just as everyone has a different view of the world. If you were to kill a known murderer would that be right or wrong? What is considered right and wrong in our world today is what society makes it out to be. If we lived under Hitler he would say that it is "right" to kill all Jewish people and the followers would listen and take that to heart, while as today we believe that to be "wrong". What made it right to the people then but wrong now?
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, January 29, 2005 - 1:57 AMBut Hitler would be wrong. If right and wrong are completely relative to one's point of view, then do you oppose human rights workers running around the world imposing their valus on others? Should we not have a Constitution that guarantees rights, since such things stop groups of people from trying to put their unconstitutional values into action? In other words, Constitutions just impose one set of preferences over other sets of preferences. But why should one set be preferred to another?
That different people believe different things doesn't entail that they are all correct. It's either morally OK to, say, try to kill all Jews as Hitler did, or it isn't. If morality is just personal preference, than the feelings that genocide, child molestation, gratuitous torture of innocent children, etc. are all wrong are just preferences as much as preferences for pumpkin cheesecake and apple pie over chocolate ice cream.
I believe that some things are morally right and wrong based on a religious world view that I believe is true. I frankly don't see what basis non-religious people have for moral obligations (at least ones that aren't self-serving). -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, January 29, 2005 - 1:16 PM“Is there truly right and wrong?”
>Yes, but it is purely subjective. Right and wrong are most likely born from what brings pleasant and unpleasant results; it’s just how far ahead you want to look that really differs for most, in my opinion.
“If you were to kill a known murderer would that be right or wrong?”
>Murder is and always will be wrong. Muderers must be made to understand the why killing is wrong. Wars are full of murder. The US occupation of Iraq is brimming with murder, AND the Bush administration is wrong in my opinion!
“If we lived under Hitler he would say that it is "right" to kill all Jewish people and the followers would listen and take that to heart, while as today we believe that to be "wrong". What made it right to the people then but wrong now?”
>At the end of World War I, many Germans believed that it was the money lenders that cost them the war; there was no more financial support for Germany and it fell. The Jewish were blamed.
“… do you oppose human rights workers running around the world imposing their valus on others?”
>I do when they carry guns!!!
“But why should one set be preferred to another?”
Hmmm……..
>“All animals are created equally, but some animals are more equal.” …George Orwell (Animal Farm)
“If morality is just personal preference, than the feelings that genocide, child molestation, gratuitous torture of innocent children, etc. are all wrong are just preferences as much as preferences for pumpkin cheesecake and apple pie over chocolate ice cream.”
>I agree with this statement, but I do not find it agreeable. A better analogy might be a preference for pumkin cheesecake and apple pie over vomit.
“I frankly don't see what basis non-religious people have for moral obligations (at least ones that aren't self-serving).”
>www.m-w.com re: ‘moral’…
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>
>Where there is community, there is morality; without the church, free thinking refections may change the existing dogmas, ie: gay marriage.
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” …Aristotle
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sun, January 30, 2005 - 12:54 PMi would have to agree that the morals of right and wrong are purely subjective. they are relative to one's, or one culture/city/religion/etc.'s point of view on what is right and wrong. whether one agrees with human rights workers' fight to "impose their values on others", it doesn't change the idea that a moral right/wrong is relative to one's point of view. different people have different views and different beliefs, true, but if there is a difinitive moral right and wrong regardless of this fact, how is it defined? where would morals come from if not defined by us? religion? gov't policy? are they just inherently there all along? -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sun, January 30, 2005 - 5:33 PM
'Dogma' is defined at www.m-w.com as.....
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma>
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
I believe that any body claiming the authority of deciding what is right and wrong for others will produce dogma with their own biases.
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Unsu...
Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, February 17, 2007 - 5:53 AMey Sione:
Morals cannot be subjective. Morals only occur when a group adheres to them.
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, September 3, 2005 - 4:00 PM"But Hitler would be wrong. If right and wrong are completely relative to one's point of view, then do you oppose human rights workers running around the world imposing their valus on others? Should we not have a Constitution that guarantees rights, since such things stop groups of people from trying to put their unconstitutional values into action? In other words, Constitutions just impose one set of preferences over other sets of preferences. But why should one set be preferred to another?"
Constitutional 'rights' are a very different concept, I think, than what is being discussed here. But then again, maybe not... Constitutional rights are really a sort of institutionalized agreement about the preferences of the majority. Funny thing is that sometimes that bites us on the ass--we might, fer instance, agree that freedom of speech is a good thing, then be outraged that that same right applies to the KKK.
And as for "why should one set be preferred to another?" Lol! Why shouldn't it? How could it be any other way? After all, that is what is meant by "preference..."
"That different people believe different things doesn't entail that they are all correct. It's either morally OK to, say, try to kill all Jews as Hitler did, or it isn't. If morality is just personal preference, than the feelings that genocide, child molestation, gratuitous torture of innocent children, etc. are all wrong are just preferences as much as preferences for pumpkin cheesecake and apple pie over chocolate ice cream."
More like a preference for pumpkin cheesecake and apple pie over feces, but still a preference.
"I believe that some things are morally right and wrong based on a religious world view that I believe is true. I frankly don't see what basis non-religious people have for moral obligations (at least ones that aren't self-serving)."
Wow. It's funny, because from my perspective that statement is morally wrong and self-serving. The belief that religion is the arbiter of morality, and thus that anyone who doesn't share your religious views on any given subject are immoral, has caused more suffering than any other single idea in history--from crusades to jihads, from inquisitions to witch burnings, that way of thinking has, at times, virtually co-opted any real personal sense of morality that people feel in thier hearts.
For me, morality isn't something that can be spoon-fed to us from a book or a philosophy or a charesmatic leader--it is something that is best felt rather than learned, and religion (and it's dogma) only get in the way of that.
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Re: Right and Wrong
Fri, September 16, 2005 - 1:21 PM"The belief that religion is the arbiter of morality, and thus that anyone who doesn't share your religious views on any given subject are immoral"
That's a non-sequitur. because I believe that religion privides the only rational foundation for morality, doesn't entail that if you don't have reluigion, you're not moral. You can have moral beliefs and behaviors based on irrational foundations. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, September 17, 2005 - 9:22 AMWhen did religion become 'rational?'
For the most part, I would say, religious beliefs are the opposite of rational, and basing morality on religion is therefor based on irrationality. Is it immoral to work on the Sabbath? To fail to bow to Mecca at the appropriate times? To eat pork or wear clothing made from more than one kind of material? For a woman to go outside without her face covered? etc. etc... -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sun, September 18, 2005 - 12:57 AMReligion can provide a comprehensive world view which reasons for action. There are reasons that fit certain world views for all those actions you describe. But as far as I can tell, holding moral beliefs outside of religion is ultimately ad hoc and doesn't follow from any coherent world view. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Mon, September 19, 2005 - 11:37 AMI'd say that, more often than not, secular views of morality are more coherent than religious views.
Take christianity as an example--I'd bet pretty much anything that if you took a poll you'ld find that the overwhelming majority of xtians believe that rape and child molestation are highly immoral, yet those beliefs don't come from the Bible, they come from secular views of morality. On the other hand, those same xtians would probably also say that stoning someone to death for adultery or homosexuality would also be highly immoral, yet that's exactly what the bible says should be done...
Abortion is another example--many xtians claim they come by their pro-life stance on religious grounds, yet the bible offers no support for that belief. In fact, abortion was practiced by the ancient Hebrews, and the Talmud states that a fetus doesn't become a Nefish (a full fledged human being) until it is born (specifically when the head is fully emerged.) And remember that Jesus specifically said that all the old laws still apply--Matthew 5:17-19--so that law should be no exception. Abortion was even more common in Rome, and both Jesus and Paul were most certainly aware of this--yet neither felt it was worthy of condemnation.
Yet xtians still site religion as a basis for their pro-life stance....
Take murder as another example--"Thou shalt not kill" is the sixth commandment, and much of what Jesus said supports that idea.... yet God, speaking through various prophets, also commanded that adulterers and homosexuals should be stoned to death, commanded the Hebrews to wage bloody war and wipe out the Jerichites and take over their land, sent a flood to wipe out most of his children when they displeased him, commanded that if your brother sins against you seven times he should also be stoned to death, sent bears to tear apart a bunch of children who teased Elijah for being bald, killed Lots wife for being curious, etc. etc.
This may be why xtians are divided on the issues of capital punishment and "preemptive strikes." Ample biblical justification can be found for either position. The bible has been used to both justify and condemn slavery, war, abortion, the death penalty, polygamy, prostitution, pedophilia, and a host of others... Coherent? Not hardly.
The truth is that religious people arrive at their views of morality in the same way that secular people do--they listen to their consciences and their hearts. The difference is that religous people then have to find ways to justify their conclusions within the confines of whatever religious dogma they ascribe to. Fortunately (for them) that is all too easy.
Fortunately (for the rest of us) that step is not necessary.
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Re: Right and Wrong
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 4:03 PM"the overwhelming majority of xtians believe that rape and child molestation are highly immoral, yet those beliefs don't come from the Bible, they come from secular views of morality."
You have that backwards. People have their moral intuitions primarily from cultural pressures, and western moral culture has been far, far more influenced by religious traditions than secular moral views. Sedcular moral systems have primarily just been rationalizations to justify the truth of religiously inspired moral sensibilities only without recours to religion.
"Abortion is another example--many xtians claim they come by their pro-life stance on religious grounds, yet the bible offers no support for that belief."
Well it does if you assume the ontological assumption of the pro-lifers that a fetus is a human person, making (if true, and I don't personally accept the assumption) abortion in most cases murder in contradiction of the 6th commandment.
"In fact, abortion was practiced by the ancient Hebrews"
That doesn't make it right, by Christian or any other standards.
"and the Talmud states that a fetus doesn't become a Nefish (a full fledged human being) until it is born"
Christians don't see themselves bound by the Talmud
"Take murder as another example--"Thou shalt not kill" is the sixth commandment,"
Actually, that's a well known mistranslation. There were two words for killing in Hebrew. One was killing in general and the other was for murder, and the 6th commandment uses the one for murder, or more precisely the unjustified, premeditated killing of another person. So there's nothing inconsistent with God commanding the Israelites to kill since it wasn't unjustified homicide, and thus not murder.
"Fortunately (for the rest of us) that step is not necessary."
Unfortunately, given that there's no persuasive secular reason to be moral, then the secularist has no persuasive position to convince others to be moral, whereas religious folks can have a shared world view on which to base moral claims. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 5:05 PM<<"the overwhelming majority of xtians believe that rape and child molestation are highly immoral, yet those beliefs don't come from the Bible, they come from secular views of morality."
You have that backwards. People have their moral intuitions primarily from cultural pressures, and western moral culture has been far, far more influenced by religious traditions than secular moral views. Sedcular moral systems have primarily just been rationalizations to justify the truth of religiously inspired moral sensibilities only without recours to religion.>>
I have it exactly forwards. Neither rape nor child molestation is condemned in the Bible. It is secular views of morality which have condemened both those things, and it is primarily the womans rights movement which brought both those things into the light enough to even be condemned. In other words, those two examples are purely secular moral beliefs which religious people have adopted. In other cases there is overlap between the secular and religious views, but in most cases it is the secular views which are dominant.
Incest is another example--the Bible both condemns and accepts it--secular culture condemns it. Polygamy, again--the Bible both condemns and permits--secular culture condemns it. Slavery?--the Bible permits but does not condemn--secular culture condemns it. Oppression of women?--the Bible COMMANDS it--secular culture condemns it. Divorce?--the Bible both accepts and condemns it, (yet Jesus himself condemned it...)--secular culture permits it.
<Well it does if you assume the ontological assumption of the pro-lifers that a fetus is a human person, making (if true, and I don't personally accept the assumption) abortion in most cases murder in contradiction of the 6th commandment. >
Except that Jesus said all the old Hebrew laws still apply, and that would include the Talmud....
<Christians don't see themselves bound by the Talmud >
Jesus said otherwise, and that's exactly my point. Christains pick and choose which parts of the Bible to pay attention to. They let their hearts and consciences do that picking and choosing, and then they find biblical means to justify their choices.
<Actually, that's a well known mistranslation. There were two words for killing in Hebrew. One was killing in general and the other was for murder, and the 6th commandment uses the one for murder, or more precisely the unjustified, premeditated killing of another person. So there's nothing inconsistent with God commanding the Israelites to kill since it wasn't unjustified homicide, and thus not murder.>
Fine. So how was the slaughter of the Jerichites 'justified?' Or any of the other examples I gave for that matter... ? Do you or don't you believe that stoning someone to death for commiting adultry is 'justified?'
<<Unfortunately, given that there's no persuasive secular reason to be moral, then the secularist has no persuasive position to convince others to be moral, whereas religious folks can have a shared world view on which to base moral claims.>>
That paragraph is just soooo much nonsense. Secular people have at least as much of a shared world view as religious people, and the secular reason to be moral is we have hearts and consciences just as much as religious folks--the difference is we don't have to compromise our consciences based on some old book or at least rationalize a justification for it based on that same book. I have no problem saying that stoning someone to death for adultry or homosexuality is morally reprehensible, and I don't have to come up with some rationalization to support that belief. Christians do have to come up with such rationalizations because the Bible says that's what should be done. I have no problem saying that rape and child molestation are morally reprehensible. Christains do need some rationalization because the Bible doesn't support them on that. I have no problem working on Sunday (or Saturday), eating pork, wearing clothes made from more than one kind of textile, planting more than one crop in a field, etc etc., and neither do most Christians--yet the Bible forbids all those things.
Religious views of morality are rationalized and justified secular views. Anyone who truly got their morality from the Bible would be in prison, and rightly so. The bibles twisted view of morality has no place in the world today, and most Christians have wisely abandoned it. Stone people to death for adultry? Try that these days and see where you end up. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Right and Wrong
Wed, September 28, 2005 - 12:05 AM"Neither rape nor child molestation is condemned in the Bible."
Well, neither is running over someone with your Jeep Cherokee, but it can be inferred. Loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others what you would have them do unto you are inconsistent with child molestation as well as rape.
"It is secular views of morality which have condemened both those things"
Again, you have that backwards, and here's why. It's a historical fact that the west has a strongly religious history. Imagine if in that history some secularist comes up with a moral theory that's completely alien and contradictory to the moral impulses of the religious culture he find himself in? Will he be able to produce any kind of "movement" behind his moral ideology when it's so alien to others? Of course not. Secular conceptions of morality have to be borrowed fron the cultures in which they're found or else they would have been rejected. Secular morality is just derivative of religious morality since they grew in religious cultures, only jettisoning the religious metaphysics.
"it is primarily the womans rights movement which brought both those things into the light enough to even be condemned. In other words, those two examples are purely secular moral beliefs which religious people have adopted."
Nonsense. Why do think the women's rights movement has more cultural traction in the west than in other parts of the world? Obviously it's not a universal impulse otherwise everyone would embrace it. The only way it could have cultural attraction in the west is if it already reflected attitudes that had a basis in western culture. Since the history of western moral culture is overwhelmingly religious, then the woman's movement could only have been as successful as it has been if its values concurred with already prevalent cultural values.
Where do you think the values you consider widespread secular values came from? You think secular philosophers have been able to change people's attitudes?
It all comes from the Golden Rule and related admonitions to love and care for one's neighbor. That's why religion had a heavy hand behind the movement for the abolition of slavery, the late 19th and early 20th century progressive movement, as well as the Civil Rights movement.
"Religious views of morality are rationalized and justified secular views."
Again, backwards. What's been more dominant historically? Secular views of morality or religious? What came first? So where did these secular views come from? You think they came out of thin air? -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Wed, September 28, 2005 - 2:18 PM<<"Neither rape nor child molestation is condemned in the Bible."
Well, neither is running over someone with your Jeep Cherokee, but it can be inferred. Loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others what you would have them do unto you are inconsistent with child molestation as well as rape. >>
Loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others what you would have them do unto you are the best examples of religious morality, and if all religious people would stick to those (while ignoring the rest of the BS) then the world would be a much better place.
And those are not originally religious ideas. In 500 BC Confucius was asked, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" He replied, "Is not RECIPROCITY such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others." Socrates, who lived from 469 to 399 BC, said-- "What stirs your anger when done to you by others that do not to others." So those ideas were originally secular ideas which Jesus endorsed.
<<"it is primarily the womans rights movement which brought both those things into the light enough to even be condemned. In other words, those two examples are purely secular moral beliefs which religious people have adopted."
Nonsense. Why do think the women's rights movement has more cultural traction in the west than in other parts of the world? Obviously it's not a universal impulse otherwise everyone would embrace it. The only way it could have cultural attraction in the west is if it already reflected attitudes that had a basis in western culture. Since the history of western moral culture is overwhelmingly religious, then the woman's movement could only have been as successful as it has been if its values concurred with already prevalent cultural values. >>
Are you under the impression that western culture has a stronger religious tradition than "the rest of the world?" If what you were saying were true then we could expect that more religious countries/cultures should have a better record on womens rights, and in fact the opposite is the case. Even in our own culture womens rights have increased as the influence of the church has waned. In the middle ages the church was all powerful and women had no rights at all. Women were the property of first their fathers and then their husbands. Nobility had the natural 'right' to ravish any peasant woman who caught their fancy. This country came up with the idea of 'seperation of church and state,' a very secular idea, and it is in that environment that womens rights have even been allowed to become an issue. If you look at those parts of the world where religion is the most influential, the middle east, India, parts of South America, those are the very parts of the world where women have the fewest rights. India is making great progress on this issue even as... India becomes more and more secular.
<<Where do you think the values you consider widespread secular values came from? You think secular philosophers have been able to change people's attitudes?
It all comes from the Golden Rule and related admonitions to love and care for one's neighbor. That's why religion had a heavy hand behind the movement for the abolition of slavery, the late 19th and early 20th century progressive movement, as well as the Civil Rights movement.>>
Which I pointed out are originally secular ideas. Those ideas are far older than Jesus. Jesus adopted those secular ideas--he didn't invent them. If you think about it, the Golden Rule is the ultimate expression of moral relativism--it defines morality as relative to the person applying the rule rather than as some absolute.
<<"Religious views of morality are rationalized and justified secular views."
Again, backwards. What's been more dominant historically? Secular views of morality or religious? What came first? So where did these secular views come from? You think they came out of thin air?>>
Secular views came from peoples hearts and consciences and were expressed by philosophers and poets.
Herodotus: ". if I choose I may rule over you. But what I condemn in another I will, if I may, avoid myself." Roughly 430 BCE.
Isocrates, the Greek orator: "What things make you angry when you suffer them at the hands of others, do not you do to other people."
And Plato may never have expressed the idea succinctly, but it is implicit in all his writings... -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Wed, September 28, 2005 - 3:43 PM"Are you under the impression that western culture has a stronger religious tradition than "the rest of the world?""
No, different religious traditions. Not all religious traditions are the same. Western secular morality is derivative of Judaeo-Christian morality, since Judaeo-Christian morality has historically dominated western cultural history. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Thu, September 29, 2005 - 2:08 PMJudeo-Christian morality may have traditionally dominated western culture, but that's changing now, thank goodness. Even modern Christians have largely backed off from the more dogmatic 'moral absolutist' views of previous centuries in favor of the secular moral relativism expressed by the Golden Rule.
The ethic of reciprocity (which the Golden Rule is one example of) is as nearly universal as any ethic can get. Examples of this ethic can be found in virtually all societies and cultures. I would go so far as to say it is the common denominator of all moral codes, both secular and religious. The difference is that secular codes tend to be based entirely on this ethic, while religious codes tend to throw a whole bunch of dogmatic rules in on top of it which have nothing to do with reciprocity. (Don't work on Sundays, masturbation is wrong, Homosexuals can't get married, etc. etc.)
Reading Zardoz's post got me thinking about possible biological aspects to morality. While I do tend to doubt that morality is hard-wired in any simple sense, it occurs to me that mirror neurons may well explain why the ethic of reciprocity is so universal.
For those of you who don't know, mirror neurons are a somewhat recent finding in neurobiology. The interesting thing about these neurons is that certain specific sets of these neurons fire when we either perform a certain task or have something happen to us... and those exact same neurons fire if we see someone else performing that same task or have that same thing happen to them. In other words our brains interpret the actions of others in the same way (to a certain extent) as they interpret our own actions.
Mirror neurons are often called 'empathy neurons' for obvious reasons. You see someone bump their head and you put your hand on your own head, scrunch your neck a bit, and say, "ow!" Or a guy gets nailed in the balls and every other guy in the room scrunches over and puts their hands protectively in their laps with expressions of pain on their faces. Why does that happen? You didn't bump your head or get nailed in the balls... but your brain interprets witnessing those actions happening to another almost as if it happened to you. Specific moral 'rules' may not be hard-wired, but the capacity for empathy is built in.
In that case, yet another paraphrase for the ethic of reciprocity could be, "Listen to your mirror neurons and act accordingly." 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you' is just another way of saying the same thing. All the many other enunciations of the ethic are also saying the same thing. Pay attention to your innate capacity for empathy and act from that space. Care about the feelings and well-being of others. Be kind. Be nice to people. Avoid causing pain or harm.
And it's easy to see that a moral code based on those principals is clearly a survival characteristic for a species--which is probably why mirror neurons evolved in the first place... -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Fri, September 30, 2005 - 11:29 PM"And it's easy to see that a moral code based on those principals is clearly a survival characteristic for a species--which is probably why mirror neurons evolved in the first place"
Unfortunately, evolutionary explanations have two major failings. First, they can't explain caring about biologically distant individuals. We would have a survival benefit to prefer family members and maybe extension of families (e.g. tribes), but the more genetically remote the individual, the less evolutionary reason to care. In short, evolution can explain the impulse to feel solidarity with a perceived in-group that one might perceive as sharing genes (perhaps explaining versions of tribalism), but not why someone should care about people on the other side of the globe. Contrary to popular belief, selection doesn't select by species, it selects by individual, and perhaps by limited group.
Second, evolutionary explanations don't provide any reason why someone should care. The fact/value gap tells us that merely describing what causes morality (even if true) doesn't entail what we ought to do. Suppose for example that racism can be exmplained by survival impulses to prefer perceived in group members over perceived out group members (regardless of whether the perception is based on biological reality). Would that entail that we should be racists? No. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, October 1, 2005 - 11:29 AM>>Unfortunately, evolutionary explanations have two major >>failings. First, they can't explain caring about biologically >>distant individuals.
From JOURNAL OF SOCIAL AND EVOLUTIONARY SYSTEMS,
www.complexsystems.org/essays...h1.html
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.........sociobiologists have promoted a truncated view of social life which, among other things, has had the unfortunate side-effect of narrowing the scope of evolutionary ethics. Edward O. Wilson launched his discipline-defining work, Sociobiology (1975), with the startling assertion that altruism is "the central theoretical problem of sociobiology: how can altruism...possibly evolve by natural selection?" The implication was that social life is based primarily on altruism, and many sociobiologists (including Wilson) adopted W.D. Hamilton's view that there are only three classes of social behavior: Altruism (or self-sacrifice for another), selfishness (raising one's own fitness at the expense of another), and spite (lowering one's own fitness in order to diminish that of another).
What Hamilton, Wilson and other pioneer sociobiologists left out of their typologies was "egoistic co-operation," joint, coordinated or reciprocal actions that are mutually beneficial (not at all altruistic). Plato, Aristotle, Spencer (and Adam Smith, for that matter) all appreciated that social life can be mutually advantageous, in many different ways. In addition to indivisible "collective goods" (sensu Mancur Olson), there are also many "corporate goods" -- jointly produced products that are divisible and that can be shared in more or less "equitable" ways.
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So, altruism only seems like a problem if you exclude the mental equipment evolved for societal relationships from consideration. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 3:05 PMSo-called "reciprocal altruism" or "rational egoism" has the problem of explaining why anyone should care about someone who serves one no personal benefit. Of perhaps more precisely, why, if the expected benefit of being nice/moral/kind to Jones is outweighed by the expected benefit of me screwing over Jones (e.g. by stealing Jones' goods), should I not screw over Jones, from the point of view of a rational egoist?
Yes, there are often personal advantages to treating others with what many would consider decency, kindness, etc., but that doesn't explain why I should when I can get away with getting more personal benefit from being cruel and rapacious.
Many argue the following: Well, if you treat others poorly, they and others are more likely to treat you poorly. But this assumes two things: First, that I will be caught treating others poorly. If I can, for example, steal without detection, then my stealing is not likely going to cause retaliation. Second, even if discovered, this argument assumes equal power relations. For example, in the Chicago gang wars of the 1930s, Capone attacked his main competotor's gang. However, his main competitor didn't have the power to retaliate in a sufficient way to make the benefit to Capone of his attack not cost effective. If I can steal from Jones and Jones and others don't have the power to make my theft cost ineffective (by retaliation), then even if my crime is detected, the expected benefit from stealing would still outweigh the expected cost. This phenomenon is reflected in many dictatorships and classist systems. A dictator steals from and abuses his people and if he's powerful enough, he won't fear a threat of retaliation sufficient enough to put him on the straight and narrow. Or in a classist system (e.g. the American south during Jim Crow or India during the caste system), one class may be so superior in power to another class that one class can abuse the other class without serious fear of retaliation, if the other class doesn't have the social power to inflict significant retaliation. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Thu, October 6, 2005 - 4:20 PMMirror neurons exist. The capacity for empathy is innate biologically because it's a survival charecteristic. It is not limited only to genetically related individuals nor even only to members of our own species.
The ethic of reciprosity is the common denominator for at least most moral codes. This ethic was first enunciated by secular philosophers and later adopted by religious leaders. The ethic says to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. Mirror neurons process events and actions of others _as if_ they were happening to us. See the connection?
I'd be willing to bet that good people were living according to the ethic of reciprosity long before it was enunciated as such. It's not the kind of thing that needs to be verbalized because it's built in. Mirror neurons make such an ethic obvious. Had Socrates never verbalized it we would still understand that good people are kind to others. We would like such people and value them over those who don't behave in that way. They will tend to have higher status and inhanced breeding opportunities. On the other hand, in a violent brutal world there are also advantages to amoral behaviors, which is probably why both types of behaviors are so common.
<<So-called "reciprocal altruism" or "rational egoism" has the problem of explaining why anyone should care about someone who serves one no personal benefit. Of perhaps more precisely, why, if the expected benefit of being nice/moral/kind to Jones is outweighed by the expected benefit of me screwing over Jones (e.g. by stealing Jones' goods), should I not screw over Jones, from the point of view of a rational egoist? >>
How do you know Jones doesn't serve you any personal benefit? And even if he doesn't how do you know he won't sometime in the future? Maybe tomorrow he'll be in a position to save your life, and if you've been kind to him he might choose to do so, but if you've been stealing from him he might decide to just let you fry. Kindness can be an investment, and no, it doesn't always pay off, but the odds are better that way than the other.
<<Yes, there are often personal advantages to treating others with what many would consider decency, kindness, etc., but that doesn't explain why I should when I can get away with getting more personal benefit from being cruel and rapacious. >>
How do you know you can get away with it? Even if you can how do you know you can get more benefit that way? Even if you're merely 'playing the odds' kindness is usually the smarter choice. If you go stealing from Jones you might get away with it, or then again you might get caught. But if you treat him honestly he might just give you or loan you what you need, in which case you get the same benefit with far less risk.
<<Many argue the following: Well, if you treat others poorly, they and others are more likely to treat you poorly. But this assumes two things: First, that I will be caught treating others poorly. If I can, for example, steal without detection, then my stealing is not likely going to cause retaliation.>>
No, it assumes that you take the risk of getting caught. To discount that argument you have to assume that you _won't_ get caught, which is a poor assumption for most people.
<<Second, even if discovered, this argument assumes equal power relations. For example, in the Chicago gang wars of the 1930s, Capone attacked his main competotor's gang. However, his main competitor didn't have the power to retaliate in a sufficient way to make the benefit to Capone of his attack not cost effective. If I can steal from Jones and Jones and others don't have the power to make my theft cost ineffective (by retaliation), then even if my crime is detected, the expected benefit from stealing would still outweigh the expected cost. This phenomenon is reflected in many dictatorships and classist systems. A dictator steals from and abuses his people and if he's powerful enough, he won't fear a threat of retaliation sufficient enough to put him on the straight and narrow. Or in a classist system (e.g. the American south during Jim Crow or India during the caste system), one class may be so superior in power to another class that one class can abuse the other class without serious fear of retaliation, if the other class doesn't have the social power to inflict significant retaliation.>>
Yes, which is why everyone is not always kind and moral. If kindness were _always_ the better choice then everyone would _always_ be kind and cruelty would be unheard of. For kindness and empathy to have a basis in biology it isn't necessary that it _always_ be advantageous, just that it be advantageous often enough... -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Fri, October 7, 2005 - 1:55 PM"The capacity for empathy is innate biologically because it's a survival charecteristic. "
Again, not for genetically distant individuals. Any survival advantage is outweighed by the survival benefits of preferring yourself and your own to the interests of others.
Why do you think tribalism exists?
"How do you know Jones doesn't serve you any personal benefit? And even if he doesn't how do you know he won't sometime in the future?"
That there may be "some" personal benefit is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the expected personal benefit from being nice or nasty is greater or less than the expected benefit from being otherwise. You're simply being amazingly naive to think that no individual will ever be in a situation where the expected gains from being rapacious and nasty outweigh the expected costs. If someone is in such a situation, then altruism doesn't work rationally from an egoist perspective. In fact, from an egoist perspective, it's more rational to be rapacious and nasty in such a situation.
"Maybe tomorrow he'll be in a position to save your life, and if you've been kind to him he might choose to do so, but if you've been stealing from him he might decide to just let you fry."
That assumes that people are always in equal power relations, which is obviously false. If Bill Gates thinks that he can make billions of dolars from stealing Apple's idea of a windows environment (which Apple had stolen from someone else) and won't get comparatively harmed in the process, then who cares if it means that Apple is more likely going to be not so nice to Gates in the future. Gates just made billions of dollars, and it's likely he made a rational decision cost-benefit wise.
Or take a dictator again. Dictator Anastasio Somoza of Nicaragua liked to steal the businesses of private individuals to make himself rich. So what were his costs? What likelihood did the businessman from whom he stole would steal equally from Anastasio in the future? Given that Somosa had far more power than any individual businessman, the likelihood of that was virtually nil.
"How do you know you can get away with it?"
Because individual decisions are made based on probability. How do you know that harming someone will harm you in the end? You have to make a rational decision based on the available evidence one way or the other. How do you know that you'll succeed in anything you do?
It's simply not rational to not do something that you think could achieve some kind of benefit just because POSSIBLY some harm can come from it. By that logic, one shouldn't do anything, since there's always a possibility of some harm resulting. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Fri, October 7, 2005 - 8:09 PM<< "The capacity for empathy is innate biologically because it's a survival charecteristic. "
Again, not for genetically distant individuals. Any survival advantage is outweighed by the survival benefits of preferring yourself and your own to the interests of others.>>
And now for the third time... sorry but bullshit. Let's try this, why don't you try to explain to me the survival advantage of mirror neurons within the narrow and simplistic viewpoint you have been putting forth?
See? the problem here is you just keep ignoring my points and repeating your own already refuted statements. Don't just keep repeating yourself, because if you do I'm just gonna start calling you 'Polly' and asking if you want a cracker...
(to answer the question I quoted in your most recent post then... see my last three posts, because we've been there and done that that...) -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Mon, October 10, 2005 - 2:26 PM"And now for the third time... sorry but bullshit. "
Simply repeating your claim does not constitute a proof
"Let's try this, why don't you try to explain to me the survival advantage of mirror neurons within the narrow and simplistic viewpoint you have been putting forth?"
You're the one being simplistic. You've latched on to this discovery of mirror neurons as if repeating the name of them is some magical answer to all moral issues. Your oversimplification is in looking at empathy as if it's undirected towards anything and anyone, when there's a survival advantage (I'm repeating this point here, since you either don't get it or are refusing to address it) to being empathetic to some entities but hostile to others. Again, why do you think tribalism exists? (empathy towards and preference for in group members vs competing outgroup members, the latter of which will draw less empathy and more antipathy)? I've asked that question before but you have yet to answer.
In short, to answer your question, to the extent mirror neurons help generate empathy, it's in the context of a complex cognitive reaction that generates empathy for in group members but less empathy (and in fact antipathy) to out group members. The reason being that generalized empathy towards everyone and everything would be a survival disadvantage (again I'm repeating myself but you have yet to address this point either) over elevated empathy for in group members over out group members. If one of our ancestors (Bob) had to decide whether to prefer out group members or in group members (or even whether to treat each equally) when there was competition for food, there would have been a survival advantage to preferring in group members, because A. The survival of the in group contains more of Bob's genes than the out group, and B. Bob's survival is more dependent on the in group than the out group. (again, I've brought up that point but you've ignored that as well).
"See? the problem here is you just keep ignoring my points and repeating your own already refuted statements."
Uhm, you've got that backwards. Which of your points have I not addressed? I've listed just three of mine above that you haven't addressed, and I could list a lot more. -
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Re: Right and Wrong
Mon, October 10, 2005 - 3:45 PM<<Uhm, you've got that backwards. Which of your points have I not addressed? I've listed just three of mine above that you haven't addressed, and I could list a lot more.>>
Actually that was just one point, rephrased several times, and I have responded to it...endlessly.
One more time... mirror neurons do *NOT* differientiate between genetically related and unrelated individuals. Certainly they are a part of a larger and much more complex cognitive framework, which may explain why the effect of these neurons is blunted under some conditions and unimpeded under others, but that is a pointless point. But the fact those neurons themselves exist and don't discriminate explains why we have the capacity at all to empathize with distantly related individuals and even other species. That was the point.
Remember, I only introduced the concept of mirror neurons to present one possible explanation for the ubiquity of the doctrine of reciprocity--all in all an interesting but unimportant aspect of my case. It was you who decided to abandon the original discussion and focus on mirror neurons. (Remember, you were attempting argue that secular morality is derivative of religious morality...) Here are the first two paragraphs from the post where I first mentions mirror neurons--
<<Judeo-Christian morality may have traditionally dominated western culture, but that's changing now, thank goodness. Even modern Christians have largely backed off from the more dogmatic 'moral absolutist' views of previous centuries in favor of the secular moral relativism expressed by the Golden Rule.
The ethic of reciprocity (which the Golden Rule is one example of) is as nearly universal as any ethic can get. Examples of this ethic can be found in virtually all societies and cultures. I would go so far as to say it is the common denominator of all moral codes, both secular and religious. The difference is that secular codes tend to be based entirely on this ethic, while religious codes tend to throw a whole bunch of dogmatic rules in on top of it which have nothing to do with reciprocity. (Don't work on Sundays, masturbation is wrong, Homosexuals can't get married, etc. etc.) >>
Here's the paragraph you chose to respond to--
<<"And it's easy to see that a moral code based on those principals is clearly a survival characteristic for a species--which is probably why mirror neurons evolved in the first place">>
And here's my paragraph, from the same post, which introduced the topic of mirror neurons and clearly placed it within the context of an interesting speculative explanation for the near universality of the doctrine of reciprocity--
<<Reading Zardoz's post got me thinking about possible biological aspects to morality. While I do tend to doubt that morality is hard-wired in any simple sense, it occurs to me that mirror neurons may well explain why the ethic of reciprocity is so universal.>>
In other words, it was your decision to ignore the topic at hand and focus on my speculations about mirror neurons, and then you have the nerve to say, "You've latched on to this discovery of mirror neurons as if repeating the name of them is some magical answer to all moral issues."
No... you're the one who latched onto it. I merely suggested it as a possible biological explanation for the ubiquity of the doctrine of reciprocity.
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Re: Right and Wrong
Sat, October 1, 2005 - 3:35 PMWell, first... I would say the very fact that mirror neurons exist refutes your points. If your points were accurate then why would we even evolve such cognitive systems, and thus the capacity for empathy? But let's get a little deeper into it--
<<Contrary to popular belief, selection doesn't select by species, it selects by individual, and perhaps by limited group.>>
That's quite an over-simplification. Species compete with each other for resources, and species which exhibit adaptave traits will have an advantage. Species which compete succesfully will survive and those that don't will go extinct. That's natural selection.
So let's go a step further back--imagine a breeding group (social species only) where a mutation introduces altruistic behaviors on the part of a few individuals. The breeding group as a whole benefits, which means that each member of the group benefits, including those with the mutation--thus the new behavior is adaptive. But for the new behavior to propagate within the group requires something more... it would be necessary that the individuals that display the new behavior either have an advantage within the group, or at least don't have any disadvantage.
So it would be necessary that there be a second behavioral adaptation, i.e. the group as a whole would have to learn to appreciate those altruistic behaviors and so the individuals in question would achieve higher status and better mating opportunities, etc. But it's important to note that the second behavioral adaptation would also be advantageous--breeding groups which adopted such a strategy would produce more altruistic individuals and everyone benefits. Such groups would have a distinct advantage over their both intra and extra-species competitors. Their populations would swell and go out to mix with other breeding groups within the species, thus transmitting both new behavioral adaptations (altruism itself and the social appreciation of it) into other groups. Soon all the breeding groups within the species are exhibiting both new behaviors.
Of course this is only possible with the more intelligent social species, but maybe that's why such behaviors are are found within all the more intelligent social species--elephants are frequently known to risk themselves to save family members, especially the young, and no a genetic relationship isn't required; dolphins sometimes take this to the extreme, where adult after adult will swim into a school of Orca trying to save one individual who is often already dead. Humans, BTW, have been known to act in similar ways...
So it's really a very simple concept--breeding groups which learn to appreciate altruistic behaviors with increased status and breeding opportunities have a competitive advantage over other breeding groups, and thus the traits propagate through the species. Species which adopt these traits prosper and there competitors go extinct.
<<Unfortunately, evolutionary explanations have two major failings. First, they can't explain caring about biologically distant individuals. We would have a survival benefit to prefer family members and maybe extension of families (e.g. tribes), but the more genetically remote the individual, the less evolutionary reason to care.>>
The problem is that, unlike some other species, we can't identify whether someone else is genetically related to us just by smelling them. So the evolutionary mechanism required to produce these behaviors would, of necessity, be generalized--it would depend on our own learned definitions rather than an actual genetic relationship. So if we learn to think of 'biologically distant individuals' as a part of our family/tribe/nation/species etc... then those mechanisms would come into play. In other words... if you grow up thinking of black people as animals then those empathic mechanisms won't apply to black people. If you grow up thinking of black people as people, then those empathy neurons will allow you to 'feel their pain' and motivate you to act to ease that pain. It all depends on where each of us, individually, draws the line between 'us' and 'them.' In a tribal culture it is likely those mechanisms applied to the current family/tribe group only, but in our current technological society our tribe, for all practical intents and purposes, has expanded to include the whole human race, and for some of us, other species as well.
<<Second, evolutionary explanations don't provide any reason why someone should care. The fact/value gap tells us that merely describing what causes morality (even if true) doesn't entail what we ought to do. Suppose for example that racism can be exmplained by survival impulses to prefer perceived in group members over perceived out group members (regardless of whether the perception is based on biological reality). Would that entail that we should be racists? No.>>
That is a very interesting paragraph because it mixes up so many different ideas all at once. Let me try to untangle it--in the first sentence you used the word "should." Let's throw that out right away. People care because they do, and if they don't then telling them that the "should" isn't going to make any difference. A better question would be 'why is it that most people _do_ care?' What makes people care about others they have never met? Why did people in California cry when the planes hit the twin towers? Why did we cry when the tanks rolled through Tiananmen Square? Why do we cry when we see pictures or hear stories of the concentration camps in Nazi Germany? Is it because some preacher told us we ought to feel that way? Or is it something more basic, more innate? Is it a question of dogma... or a question of empathy...?
As for the question of 'what we ought to do...' that is the eternal question, isn't it? And even among religious folks there is seldom significant agreement on that... Even when everyones hearts are in the right place they often disagree on what should be done to make things better. Empathy neurons may provide us with a biologically inborn way to feel each others pain (and joy) but they don't include a magic instruction book on what to do about it. So the end result is we all do our best, and that's all that can be asked of us.
<<Suppose for example that racism can be exmplained by survival impulses to prefer perceived in group members over perceived out group members (regardless of whether the perception is based on biological reality). Would that entail that we should be racists? No.>>
It all depends on where we, each of us individually, draws the line between 'in-group' members and 'out-group' members. In a more primitive tribal culture it would make evolutionary sense to draw that circle closer to home and prefer your own family/tribe to "others." In todays world it makes more sense to draw that circle around the planet itself and include everyone in the 'in-group.' And that very idea is part of the new secular morality, which didn't derive from any religion, but rather came from a pragmatic recognition that the 'tribe' has expanded to include the entire planet.
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